15:01:15 #startmeeting oVirt Infra weekly 15:01:15 Meeting started Mon Nov 12 15:01:15 2012 UTC. The chair is quaid. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 15:01:15 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 15:01:18 ok,i will see it 15:01:32 btw does not mean this is the right way, but helps to troubleshoot the problem. 15:01:52 #topic Agenda & rollcall 15:02:48 http://wiki.ovirt.org/wiki/Infrastructure_team_meetings#2012-11-12 15:03:07 ''Agenda'' 15:03:07 * MediaWiki & www 15:03:07 * Hosting 15:03:07 * Trac review 15:03:07 * Puppet 15:03:09 * Jenkins 15:03:12 * Gerrit 15:03:14 * Other business? 15:03:41 ok, not sure if there is anyone else around 15:03:48 * sgordon is here 15:03:49 so I'll proceed and we'll see :) 15:03:54 bit kind of split with another call 15:03:56 *but 15:04:24 * eedri_ is at another meeting currently.. party attentive 15:05:10 yeah, I forgot to remind us about how the daylight savings change would affect this meeting 15:05:21 #chair eedri_ sgordon garrett_ 15:05:21 Current chairs: eedri_ garrett_ quaid sgordon 15:05:32 #topic MediaWiki & www 15:06:01 http://lists.ovirt.org/pipermail/infra/2012-November/001338.html 15:06:13 I started working on the move to OpenShift last week 15:06:34 http://fpaste.org/2dU2/ < Is this normal when a virtual disk is being created? Seems too slow to me. 15:06:38 * ewoud is also partly here 15:07:05 #chair ewoud 15:07:05 Current chairs: eedri_ ewoud garrett_ quaid sgordon 15:07:31 so there are some open discussion points, which I think we need to resolve on-list 15:07:42 for example, the "/wiki or not" question 15:08:11 I'd say not, as the entire website is going to be a wiki 15:08:27 isnt the issue that mediawiki becomes a bit harder to manage? 15:08:28 and we'd use sub-domains for any non-wiki parts 15:08:34 or was that just a furphy? 15:08:40 still, mediawiki doesn't recommend removing it 15:08:42 sgordon, in which ways? I haven't noticed any 15:08:51 what ewoud said 15:08:58 right, but why? 15:09:00 I think it comes down to MW not recommending for it, meaning they don't really test it 15:09:18 but it does work, and people do run it that way 15:09:23 for example, it means you need to do something about ovirt.org/robots.txt - MW thinks that's an article request 15:09:32 if you're running it alongside something else, then I could see some issues perhaps 15:09:50 we also don't have access to Apache directly, so we need to do all this in .htaccess 15:09:51 i dont see the issue with having /wiki in the URL anyway if we can redirect properly 15:09:55 quaid, that should be possible to do 15:10:26 sgordon, it's ugly to have /wiki in the URL, and we don't need to advertise the fact that the site is powered by a wiki 15:10:33 I have a few open questions (that's just one of them) in the infra@ thread 15:11:01 ugly is relative, i dont see it as that big a deal 15:11:13 garrett_: I think we'll want a way to get people at the start of "our wiki" - a wiki is a thing people look for 15:11:22 are we going to have www. in front too? 15:11:27 and :80 in the URL also? 15:11:44 dont see your point really? 15:11:47 www.ovirt.org:80/wiki < yehaw! 15:11:53 ovirt.org can redirect to www.ovirt.org/wiki 15:11:56 etc 15:12:09 www.ovirt.org:80/wiki/Content instead of ovirt.org/Content 15:12:18 no, it shouldn't redirect 15:12:22 it shouldn't be like that 15:12:35 one should NEVER expose technical implementations in a URL 15:12:43 yeah, doesnt seem to work for wikipedia 15:12:44 ;) 15:12:55 im just saying if there are issues with removing /wiki 15:13:04 wikipedia is supposed to be a wiki, and I don't agree with the way they do everything 15:13:07 then it doesnt seem like it should be a big deal to leave /wiki in there 15:13:16 yeah, I would love to know any issues there may be with removing /wiki 15:13:20 I'd say we currently work towards just moving wordpress to the wiki 15:13:30 and when we've done that we can look at removing the wiki from the URL 15:13:39 just some hand-waving that it could be a bad idea, especially when it may not even apply to us, is not a reason 15:13:42 is ovirt.org not supposed to be a wiki? 15:14:02 ovirt.org is supposed to be a website 15:14:06 with content 15:14:19 garrett_: I recall trying it and had some issues, which is why I'm not so happy about it 15:14:29 and we're enabling people to edit it, and we happened to choose a wiki, as that's best for what we want 15:14:44 currently, wordpress powers some of it, and mediawiki others 15:14:51 and it's not clear what goes where or why 15:15:03 garrett_: I'm all for removing /wiki, but for technical reasons and implementation speed I'd choose not te remove it right now 15:15:04 and MW looks like an awkward wiki on the live site 15:15:20 ewoud, it certainly works flawlessly in my testing 15:15:37 my point is this: I haven't had a single issue whatsoever with removing /wiki from my sandbox 15:15:39 I know we could do this in stages, but I sort-of feel that we want to do the URL change at the same time 15:15:46 and there isn't a reason listed anywhere that I can find 15:16:07 I've only seen one comment that says it might be a bad idea, and doesn't say why or under what circumstances 15:16:07 http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Wiki_in_site_root_directory 15:16:30 there are 3 bullets there, which I think we've discussed at various times 15:16:45 #info special rules for favicon.ico, robots.txt are needed 15:16:59 #info periodic bugs because it's not the expected configuration 15:17:12 #info not supported by MW developers 15:17:18 first one, for favicon.ico and robots.txt can be handled fine 15:17:38 periodic bugs? but there are periodic bugs in all software 15:18:10 pretty sure the implication is they dont test such configurations at all 15:19:16 some major wiki sites do run it in root 15:19:37 isn't wikia powered by mediawiki? 15:19:59 for one example 15:20:20 ok, I'll take each of the open points in the thread and make sure they get addressed 15:20:29 sure, thanks 15:20:52 (just checked: yes, Wikia does use MW (+ extensions + custom theme), and runs it without /wiki/ in the URL) 15:21:01 I know we could do this in stages, but I sort-of feel that we want to do the URL change at the same time 15:21:02 I'm sure there are others too 15:21:04 oops 15:21:12 * quaid kicks his touchpad 15:21:26 quaid, yes, agreed; URL change should be handled at the same time 15:21:44 #agreed We need to resolve this on-list ultimately, moving discussion back there 15:22:19 anyone who wants to work on the MW instance in OpenShift can send me a public sshkey to upload 15:22:32 * ewoud is afk now because of another meeting 15:22:46 garrett_, while I have seen mediawiki installs that didn't use the /wiki (or /w) it's not recommended by MW developers... 15:23:18 dneary, but the reasons are mostly FUD 15:23:56 garrett_: let's get the theme named and posted, too, so I can load it in the instance 15:24:02 FUD = Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt... don't agree that they're FUD 15:24:11 when the developers themselves are spreading it 15:24:12 Certaibnly, they can be worked around 15:24:13 if there are problems, we can fix them when we get to them, and submit patches if there are really issues 15:24:16 im not sure it qualifies as FUD 15:24:44 it does, at least to some degree 15:24:52 sgordon: I see garrett's point - the language I've seen is mainly "Don't do it, bad things might happen, and we won't support it when they do" 15:25:02 yeah but if we put that warning in 15:25:10 and someone did it with our software and something happened 15:25:18 our response would probably be too bad so sad :P 15:25:34 developers also usually put in messages that their software might eat kittens and puppies or trash a hard drive too 15:25:38 (granted with ovirt if we put a warning in that generally means you could be looking at data loss) 15:25:52 One practical issue for us - it'll require either a site-wide RewriteRule and will potentially cause issues for Google indexing, because all old /wiki/Page_name pages will now need to be /Page_name 15:25:53 for me the point is, there are scant reasons NOT to - the main reason not to is that it's unsupported, there are no other solid technical arguments 15:26:06 Is there a potential data migration issue also? 15:26:24 dneary, yes, but we can make that work 15:26:48 whatever known issues there might be, we can fix and/or work around 15:27:51 14[[07Infrastructure team meetings14]]4 !10 02http://wiki.ovirt.org/w/index.php?diff=5386&oldid=5385&rcid=5510 5* 03Quaid 5* (+0) 10fixing the date -d call to match what it's supposed to - 10 am US Eastern 15:28:30 does anyone think we can reach a consensus here? 15:28:38 regardless, I think we need to decide on-list 15:29:29 yup 15:29:35 quaid, there are possible issues listed, such as making sure robots.txt and favicon.ico are accounted for — we should simply try for the best option (not having /wiki/ or /w/) and see if we can get it working, addressing whatever issue there might be 15:29:54 if it doesn't work then we can fall back, but the the minor issues brought up are completely solvable 15:31:27 for example, we should try to abide by this: http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI 15:31:47 garrett_, quaid: I have some time this week to do this, if needs be 15:31:58 But we need to avoid holding things up unnecessarily 15:32:05 that's why we should just do it 15:32:11 i think the MW cites that same page as why not to do it 15:32:12 fwi 15:32:14 *fyi 15:32:21 and if there are problems with it, then we can either solve them — or if we cannot, then fall back 15:32:39 sgordon, that page also lists reasons why to do it too 15:32:39 ok, let's move this discussion back to the list 15:32:52 I don't want to put a bunch of time in a solution without all of us agreeing we can/should try 15:33:01 again, we are working on a different server, so we should try to do the right thing and have cleaner URLs 15:33:08 and if that doesn't work, we fall back 15:33:13 +1 15:33:27 I'd like to see it cleaner and done one time, if we can 15:33:41 agreed 15:34:25 if we start by not trying, then we accept mediocrity by default. if we try and discover we cannot, then we can work toward a compromise. 15:34:50 ok, moving on for now 15:34:53 ok 15:34:56 #topic Hosting 15:35:20 #info No update from Red Hat IT 15:35:29 more my fault for forgetting to get an update 15:35:34 #action quaid to get a RHT IT update 15:35:46 #info OpenShift hosting is in the works for the new MediaWiki instance 15:36:06 dneary: anything for AlterWay today? 15:36:21 quaid, Not today. An update since the last time, however 15:36:45 quaid, Turns out it's not as straightforward as "ask the CEO of Red Hat France to sign it" 15:37:18 quaid, I am at the start of the process of submitting the terms & conditions of AlterWay's hosting to Red Hat legal to get it approved 15:37:33 Still figuring out the right way to do that, but I'm talking to our EMEA counsel 15:38:03 In the meantime, I have asked Stéphane to join infra@ so as to work on requirements and preparatory work so that we can get started ASAP 15:38:13 I'll be following up with him by phone this week 15:38:15 #info dneary is working the T&Cs with Red Hat France 15:38:36 #info Stephane invited to work out requirements and prep on infra@ 15:38:58 #action dneary to follow up with Stephane this week 15:39:14 anything more? 15:39:52 #topic Trac review 15:40:27 https://fedorahosted.org/ovirt/report/1 15:40:37 quaid, That's it 15:41:20 quaid, They're as impatient as us. Two weeks travel plus two weeks last minute planning in the last month has unfortunately made me the SPOF for that, and I'm eager to remedy that 15:41:35 #info Ticket #4 is in progress and been discussed today (updating www) - garrett has the theme done but unnammed, ready to use https://fedorahosted.org/ovirt/ticket/4 15:42:00 dneary: cool, we'll get it 15:42:33 #info Ticket #6 is an open thread on the mailing list, ewoud is not available right now to discuss https://fedorahosted.org/ovirt/ticket/6 15:42:46 #undo 15:42:46 Removing item from minutes: 15:43:01 #info Ticket #6 is an open thread on the mailing list (foreman/puppet), ewoud is not available right now to discuss https://fedorahosted.org/ovirt/ticket/6 15:43:58 #info Ticket #10 (arch@ => devel@) is unchanged, I'm just prioritizing doing it after we get the www done https://fedorahosted.org/ovirt/ticket/10 15:45:44 quaid, For ticket 11, it seems that the slowness is periodic, I'm not experiencing it now 15:46:12 #info Ticket #11 (slow mailman response), I'm supposing it will resolve when we move the list server or take load off the server it is on https://fedorahosted.org/ovirt/ticket/11 15:46:22 Could be load related, or related to some kind of resource leak 15:46:43 Or any of a dozen other things, but those are the most probable :) 15:46:59 the VM doesn't have a lot of RAM & the disk IO gets slammed all the time with stuff 15:47:35 another problem solved: when strating a vm the image is assigned to nobody:nobody with 660 permissions. This seems not to suffice, resulting in Permission Denied. So this image needs 666 permissions. 15:47:43 #info Ticket #5 (how-to use Trac) is low priority but will eventually get done :) https://fedorahosted.org/ovirt/ticket/5 15:47:44 s/strating/starting* 15:47:58 and that's ticket review :) 15:48:25 for the rest of the agenda: 15:48:35 anyone here who has updates for Jenkins, Gerritt, or Puppet? 15:48:51 I'm going to open those topics and give a minute for each 15:49:03 #topic Puppet 15:49:35 #info ongoing discussion on list about how to handle this, is tied in to hosting changes 15:50:51 #topic Jenkins 15:51:26 RobertM: did you see the question about Jenkins backups? 15:51:39 it happened on infra@ over the weekend 15:52:45 RobertM: can you approve my wiki account? Or mburns if one of you around? Thanks in advance. 15:53:29 quaid, I don't see anything with the subject as backup 15:53:45 val0x00ff, I'll do it 15:54:00 quaid, The notification emails aren't getting sent, and I don't see notifications in the wiki either 15:54:27 RobertM: http://lists.ovirt.org/pipermail/infra/2012-November/001343.html 15:54:50 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create210 02 5* 03Rmiddle 5* 10Rmiddle created a user account Val0x00ff 15:54:50 dneary: Thanks. I'll try and do my best to contribute to the wiki as I'm doing all day nothing else than oVirt 15:54:51 14[[07User:Val0x00ff14]]4 !N10 02http://wiki.ovirt.org/w/index.php?oldid=5387&rcid=5512 5* 03Rmiddle 5* (+700) 10Creating user page for new user. 15:54:51 dneary: which notification emails? 15:54:52 14[[07User talk:Val0x00ff14]]4 !N10 02http://wiki.ovirt.org/w/index.php?oldid=5388&rcid=5513 5* 03Rmiddle 5* (+252) 10Welcome! 15:55:04 val0x00ff, Confirmed 15:55:12 quaid, "User XXX requested a wiki account" 15:55:18 ah, those 15:55:22 RobertM, Thanks! Beat me to it 15:56:47 ok, moving along 15:57:19 RobertM: Thank you. Just got the confirmation email and changed the password already. Going to hang around there a bit. 15:57:34 #topic Gerrit 15:57:56 #info no update for this topic, may remove from standing agenda for now or until move planned 15:58:30 #topic Any other business? 15:59:05 14[[07OVirt 3.1 release notes14]]4 !10 02http://wiki.ovirt.org/w/index.php?diff=5389&oldid=4879&rcid=5514 5* 03Val0x00ff 5* (+7) 10/* Fedora */  16:01:23 ok closing mtg 16:01:32 #endmeeting