14:00:12 <mburns> #startmeeting oVirt Weekly Sync 14:00:12 <ovirtbot> Meeting started Wed Oct 3 14:00:12 2012 UTC. The chair is mburns. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:00:12 <ovirtbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 14:00:20 <mburns> #topic agenda and roll call 14:00:35 <mburns> Agenda: 14:00:35 <mburns> Status of Next Release (Feature Planning) 14:00:36 <mburns> Sub-project reports (engine, vdsm, node, infra) 14:00:36 <mburns> Workshops 14:01:29 * oschreib is back in black 14:01:32 * quaid is here 14:01:33 * dneary here 14:01:43 <dneary> Also a stones fan 14:02:07 * sgordon here 14:02:13 * RobertM here 14:02:38 * quaid is also a Johnnie Cash fan 14:03:25 <ovirtbot> 14[[07Meetings14]]4 !10 02http://wiki.ovirt.org/w/index.php?diff=4613&oldid=4490&rcid=4727 5* 03Mburns 5* (+348) 10/* 2012 */ update last couple of meeting minutes 14:03:53 <mburns> first topic for today -- welcome back oschreib ! 14:04:12 <oschreib> good to be back :) 14:04:48 <mburns> #topic Release status 14:05:11 * mgoldboi here 14:05:21 <mburns> #info targeting a mid november Beta and Mid December release for 3.2 14:05:31 <mburns> #info primarily a bug fix release 14:05:33 <dneary> So between "back in black", "paint it black" and "man in black", we're covering the genres today 14:05:59 <dneary> mburns, Are we in 3.2 feature freeze, then? 14:05:59 <mburns> #info feature list is still pending 14:06:12 <mburns> dneary: no, we have a few weeks before that 14:06:13 <dneary> mburns, I'd love to see us get MOM into 3.2 if it's ready 14:06:29 <mburns> dneary: that would be good 14:07:17 <mburns> itamar: do we have any idea what features are going to be ready for beta? 14:07:45 <itamar> mburns, yes. 14:07:46 <aglitke> dneary, Hi... Working on answering your question re: mom inclusion 14:07:50 <mburns> #action mburns to follow up with maintainers to figure out feature lists for 3.2 -- DUE by 10-Oct 14:07:57 <itamar> though i assume feature freeze? 14:08:11 <oschreib> when is feature freeze? next week? 14:08:19 <itamar> 15-nov 14:08:26 <oschreib> any wiki page on next release? 14:08:26 <mburns> we never set a feature freeze date 14:08:31 <aglitke> dneary, It would be good to settle on a set of Use Cases for MOM. Just including it doesn't really buy us anything. 14:08:31 <mburns> beta date is 14-Nov 14:08:38 <dneary> aglitke, Cool! Great to see you here 14:08:51 <itamar> mburns, right, well, branch day? 14:08:56 <oschreib> mburns: sure we did 14:09:08 <oschreib> mburns: http://wiki.ovirt.org/wiki/Second_Release (feature freeze -> branching day) 14:09:28 <itamar> i was assuming nov-14 is branch date till now? 14:09:35 * dneary renamed that page 14:09:58 <dneary> When I thought that the release management page for 3.2 would be called "Third Release" I said "stop" 14:10:07 <mburns> oschreib: yes, according to the release process, we should branch and freeze right before beta 14:10:13 <mburns> so Nov 14 14:10:36 * mburns wouldn't mind adding a week in between freeze and beta though (freeze nov 7, beta on nov 14) 14:11:24 <mburns> itamar: ok, are there feature pages or a list of the features you want to get in? 14:12:05 <mburns> aglitke: dneary: is there a feature page for MOM inclusion? 14:12:25 <aglitke> mburns, one sec... 14:13:06 <aglitke> http://wiki.ovirt.org/wiki/Project_Proposal_-_MOM <-- very old 14:13:22 <itamar> ui plugins will hopefully mature enough by then 14:13:22 <aglitke> http://wiki.ovirt.org/wiki/Category:SLA 14:13:39 <itamar> network as a main tab and network permission 14:13:39 <dneary> mburns, I saw the Gerrit patchset, which looked like it was approved 14:13:47 <aglitke> The SLA category is the more recent work from Doron and I 14:13:48 <mburns> #info UI plugins should be ready 14:14:02 <itamar> gluster pushed a few features around importing existing gluster clusters 14:14:11 <mburns> #info make network a main tab should be included 14:14:12 <itamar> and alon pushed improvements to bootstraps 14:14:16 <mburns> #info import of gluster clusters 14:14:19 <mburns> #undo 14:14:19 <ovirtbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x8e2e0ac> 14:14:24 <mburns> #info import of existing gluster clusters 14:14:33 <mburns> #info bootstrap improvements 14:14:51 <mburns> #info SLA is a target for inclusion (MOM) 14:15:02 <itamar> cac support in user portal for spice 14:15:16 <mburns> #info cac support in user portal for spice 14:16:00 <itamar> and hopefully some improvements on creating vms based on pre-defined profiles (instance types) 14:16:25 <itamar> i guess a few more improvements will go in other than these (and the main changes are a lot of bug fixes of course) 14:16:45 <aglitke> need to check with danken if he agrees but we were shooting to have libvdsm included as well (as tech preview) 14:16:54 <mburns> #info vm creation base on pre-defined profiles (instance types) 14:17:08 <mburns> #info other small improvements, bug fixes 14:17:15 <itamar> need to verify with ayal, but i assume storage live migration should be there 14:17:28 <mburns> #info (preview) libvdsm 14:17:41 <mburns> #info (abaron) storage live migration 14:17:50 <itamar> there are a few changes already merged upstream like sync network and nwfilter 14:17:54 <ovirtbot> 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create210 02 5* 03DNeary 5* 10created new account User:Vfeenstr 14:17:55 <ovirtbot> 14[[07User:Vfeenstr14]]4 !N10 02http://wiki.ovirt.org/w/index.php?oldid=4614&rcid=4729 5* 03DNeary 5* (+35) 10Creating user page with biography of new user. 14:17:56 <ovirtbot> 14[[07User talk:Vfeenstr14]]4 !N10 02http://wiki.ovirt.org/w/index.php?oldid=4615&rcid=4730 5* 03DNeary 5* (+219) 10Welcome! 14:18:17 <mburns> #info sync network, nwfilter already merged 14:18:24 <ovirtbot> 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create210 02 5* 03DNeary 5* 10created new account User:Hozn 14:18:25 <ovirtbot> 14[[07User:Hozn14]]4 !N10 02http://wiki.ovirt.org/w/index.php?oldid=4616&rcid=4732 5* 03DNeary 5* (+73) 10Creating user page with biography of new user. 14:18:26 <ovirtbot> 14[[07User talk:Hozn14]]4 !N10 02http://wiki.ovirt.org/w/index.php?oldid=4617&rcid=4733 5* 03DNeary 5* (+219) 10Welcome! 14:18:32 <mburns> excellent, lots of good stuff 14:18:40 <mburns> more than i expected for a mostly bugfix release 14:20:00 <mburns> #action mburns to pull all of these features into the 3.2 release summary page 14:20:47 <dneary> mburns, Is Dec 19 looking like the GA estimate? 14:20:53 <dneary> A Wednesday in mid December 14:21:11 <danken> aglitke: I'm all for libvdsm in (but needs acks from smizrahi) 14:21:11 <mburns> once i have the summary page up, i'll start harassing^Wasking people to update a feature page for each one with info that sgordon can use for release notes 14:21:21 <sgordon> \o/ 14:21:37 <mburns> dneary: i'd like to shoot for the 12th 14:21:39 <aglitke> danken, yeah... I sent him a note to ask him for some head's down time to work on it together. 14:21:49 <mburns> dneary: and slip to the 19th if necessary 14:21:58 <aglitke> danken, I think if it's considered a priority his manager will let him spend some time on it. 14:22:07 <oschreib> mburns: need some help with the 3.2 release page? (now that I'm here) 14:22:08 <mburns> if we say 19th and then slip, we run into issues for US based RH employees 14:22:15 <danken> aglitke: yeah, he's partying all days and nights in the holy land 14:22:28 <mburns> oschreib: possibly, but it's supposed to be part of my role now... 14:22:39 <aglitke> danken, That's good ! :) 14:22:59 <danken> aglitke: for him; not for the project ;-) 14:23:05 <mburns> oschreib: might need your help getting people to do the feature pages though 14:23:34 <mburns> #info libvdsm has ack from danken, but needs ack from smizrahi 14:23:44 <mburns> #chair oschreib 14:23:44 <ovirtbot> Current chairs: mburns oschreib 14:24:02 <oschreib> mburns: sure. 14:24:20 <dneary> OK - 4 weeks before that is Nov 14th 14:24:51 <mburns> yep, which is the estimated beta date 14:25:32 <mburns> anyone have anything else for the release status? 14:25:57 <mgoldboi> if we are talking on schedule - what about test day? 14:26:08 <mgoldboi> any target on it? 14:26:40 <mburns> probably ~ 1 week after beta 14:27:05 <mburns> hmm...that's actually a bad day 14:27:20 <mburns> perhaps target the 19th? 14:28:04 <danken> mburns: it needs upstream acceptence 14:28:16 <mburns> danken: libvdsm? 14:28:23 <mburns> or the test day? 14:28:24 <danken> yeah, to be exact 14:28:30 <danken> ahh sorry for bad context 14:28:39 <mburns> danken: ;-) 14:28:44 <danken> irc interlacing is a headache. 14:29:09 <mburns> #info libvdsm also still needs upstream acceptance 14:29:52 <mburns> mgoldboi: from my point of view, i think we say either 19-Nov or 26-Nov for the test day 14:29:58 <mgoldboi> mburns: i think we can put 19th as a tentative date (week or so after beta) 14:30:00 <mburns> or possibly 28-Nov 14:30:17 <mgoldboi> mburns: if we'll have beta ready on time.. 14:30:25 <mburns> mgoldboi: right 14:30:41 <mburns> #info tentative Test day date: 2012-11-19 14:30:46 <ovirtbot> 14[[07OVirt 3.2 release-management14]]4 !N10 02http://wiki.ovirt.org/w/index.php?oldid=4618&rcid=4734 5* 03DNeary 5* (+698) 10Create initial draft of 3.2 release planning page 14:30:57 <dneary> mburns, A present for you ^^^ :) 14:30:59 <mburns> dneary: thanks 14:31:32 <mburns> ok, anything else for release? 14:32:41 <ovirtbot> 14[[07OVirt 3.2 release-management14]]4 !10 02http://wiki.ovirt.org/w/index.php?diff=4619&oldid=4618&rcid=4735 5* 03Mburns 5* (+34) 10/* Timeline */ 14:32:47 <mburns> ok, moving on 14:32:52 <ovirtbot> 14[[07User:Hozn14]]4 !10 02http://wiki.ovirt.org/w/index.php?diff=4620&oldid=4616&rcid=4736 5* 03Hozn 5* (+146) 10 14:32:57 <mburns> #topic Sub Project Status -- infra 14:33:04 <mburns> RobertM: quaid: anything to report here 14:33:12 <mburns> #chair quaid RobertM 14:33:12 <ovirtbot> Current chairs: RobertM mburns oschreib quaid 14:35:03 <mburns> ok, guess not 14:35:13 <dneary> mburns, Only the Alter Way offer, I guess 14:35:26 <mburns> #info proposal from AlterWay has been sent to the board for review 14:35:40 <mburns> #undo 14:35:40 <ovirtbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x8edaeec> 14:35:42 <dneary> mburns, It's "Alter Way" 14:35:49 <mburns> #info proposal for hosting from Alter Way has been sent to the board for review 14:36:07 <dneary> I bet they will appreciate us getting ti right 14:36:07 <mburns> dneary: sticky space bar on this keyboard... 14:36:28 <mburns> yes, probably 14:36:52 <mburns> #info no real need for other sub-project reports, covered in release status 14:36:57 <mburns> #topic workshops 14:37:09 <mburns> #topic workshops - Bangalore 14:37:30 <mburns> dneary: jbrooks: anything to report here? 14:39:17 <dneary> mburns, We're working through the details for the gift 14:39:28 <dneary> 60 slots - sold out on EventBright 14:39:45 <mburns> #info working through the attendee gift details 14:39:51 <mburns> #info 60 slots, all sold out 14:39:53 <dneary> jbrooks, Do you have any feedback on what percentage of survey respondents asked to attend day 2? 14:40:36 <dneary> It looks like we're going to have 16GB USB keys with a bootable all-in-one oVirt image ready to go that people can use in a hands-on workshop 14:41:01 <mburns> #info expected gifts: 16GB USB keys with a bootable all-in-one oVirt image ready to go that people can use in a hands-on workshop 14:41:05 <dneary> I don't think jbrooks is online yet 14:41:08 <mburns> dneary: very nice 14:41:22 <dneary> I hope I haven't spoken too soon :) 14:41:35 <mburns> dneary: no worries 14:41:44 <mgoldboi> dneary: I hope all will be done till Wednesday 14:41:46 <mburns> it's only permanent now that it's on the internet... 14:41:47 <dneary> We've also been finalising the agenda with itamar 14:41:57 <mburns> #info agenda being finalized now 14:41:58 <dneary> mgoldboi, Me too 14:42:17 <ovirtbot> 14[[07Troubleshooting14]]4 !10 02http://wiki.ovirt.org/w/index.php?diff=4621&oldid=4603&rcid=4737 5* 03Hozn 5* (+500) 10Adding a question/answer on Node installation when ovirtmgmt bridge interface is not automatically setup 14:42:32 <dneary> Huzzah! 14:42:52 * dneary happy to see that wiki edit go in 14:42:59 <mburns> mgoldboi: feel free to ping if you have problems, my team has a fair amount of livecd experience 14:43:08 <mgoldboi> mburns: sure 14:43:37 <mburns> #topic workshop - Barcelona (KVM Forum/LinuxCon EU) 14:43:55 <mburns> #info booth setup is being finalized 14:44:13 <mburns> #info hardware for demo is being discussed with sponsor companies (no commitments yet) 14:44:36 <mburns> i'm pretty sure that all submissions for the workshop are being accepted 14:44:43 <dneary> aglitke, MOM also has this page: http://wiki.ovirt.org/wiki/Features/MomIntegration 14:44:59 <dneary> mburns, I need to follow up with cdub, I still do not know 14:45:14 <mburns> dneary: last i heard was that # submissions == # slots 14:45:23 <aglitke> mburns, I haven't received any info regarding CFP approval process. I am supposed to be helping with that. 14:45:24 <dneary> mburns, I heard "roughly the same" 14:45:33 <mburns> but yes, we need to confirm that 14:46:09 <aglitke> dneary, Yes that page has good info on the architecture. 14:46:12 <mburns> aglitke: cdub should be able to set up access for you, i think 14:46:31 <aglitke> mburns, ok. Will follow-up with him 14:46:57 <mburns> that's all the info i have on Barcelona 14:47:04 <mburns> dneary: do you know anything else? 14:47:11 <dneary> mburns, Yes, that about sums up where I'm at too 14:47:32 <dneary> The stand is getting done, the agenda is coming along but slowly, and it might need a little nudge 14:47:33 <mburns> #topic other topics 14:47:38 <mburns> anyone have anything else? 14:47:43 <dneary> Registrations I have no visibility on yet 14:48:09 <dneary> But I think clearly we're going to have a challenge getting a good turn-out since we're opposite the KVM Forum 14:49:32 <mburns> dneary: we have to look at it as 2 different audiences -- KVM Forum caters more toward the lower levels while oVirt is more about deploying and managing an entire datacenter of VMs 14:51:01 <dneary> mburns, Right 14:51:30 <dneary> mburns, But there are definitely user/deployer topics in the KVM forum, and developer topics in the oVirt workshop 14:51:36 <dneary> Hi lh 14:51:42 <mburns> dneary: agreed 14:51:49 <lh> dneary, greetings from my hotel where there is actually useful connectivity 14:52:03 <mburns> lh: ahh good timing 14:52:19 <lh> mburns, i try. this time i seem to have succeeded. 14:52:33 <mburns> lh: any details on the workshops? 14:52:45 <lh> mburns, dneary has details on bangalore 14:53:10 <dneary> lh: I was just saying that I don't have visibility on Barcelona registration yet 14:53:21 <dneary> The Bangalore update is done 14:53:23 <mburns> lh: yes, we have bangalore covered 14:53:35 <lh> mburns, for KVM Forum + oVirt, we're making good progress. outstanding action items include choosing booth space, selecting attendee gifts and announcing results of CFP 14:53:44 <dneary> (only question now is how much drop-off we will have from day 1 to day 2 14:53:53 <lh> attendee list forthcoming from Linux Foundation today for Barcelona 14:53:56 <dneary> and whether we should re-open sign-ups just for day 2) 14:54:34 <lh> dneary, I think if re-open sign ups we'll have some folks not make it into second round of registrations. 14:54:52 <lh> dneary, perhaps better to email the attendee list with the new agenda format, ask which day(s) they'd like to attend and register them manually? 14:56:03 <dneary> lh: I was thinking: change the dates on the Eventbrite page, notify everyone of the second day and full agenda, and ask people to confirm if they will not attend the second day so that we can figure out what the day 2 attendance will be and course correct accordingly 14:56:23 <lh> dneary, that works too, though it puts the burden on the attendees for our course correction. 14:56:28 <lh> i suspect they'll be fine with it. 14:56:30 <dneary> Yes 14:56:50 <dneary> The alternative puts a burden on attendees to confirm their presence on day 2 14:57:01 <dneary> (unless I misunderstood your proposal) 14:57:44 <lh> We have to email them either way, right? If yes, in a perfect world we'd take care of everything for them on the backend and tell them great, turn up this day at this time and you are all set. 14:58:03 <lh> This is not a perfect world, so sending them back to re-register on EventBrite is not the worst thing. 14:58:40 <lh> Given our findings, I expect most folks will be interested in our user focused sessions on Day 1, which they are already registered for, so shouldn't be too much more work for them. 14:59:13 <dneary> OK 14:59:17 <mburns> #info looking at re-opening registration for day 2 in bangalore 14:59:36 <dneary> I was thinking more along the lines of "you're good for day 1 anyway, if you do nothing you're also good for day 2 14:59:47 <dneary> mburns, Good summary :) 14:59:50 <lh> dneary, that works. 14:59:52 <mburns> #info open items for barcelona: booth layout, attendee gifts; announce CFP 15:00:03 <lh> mburns, I know you're looking into demo equipment for Barcelona as well - any news on that front? 15:00:14 <dneary> s/"announce CPF"/"Aannounce talk schedule" 15:00:16 <mburns> dneary: i like the "do nothing, and you're all set for day 2" 15:00:25 <mburns> #undo 15:00:25 <ovirtbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x8f0bf8c> 15:00:30 <mburns> #info open items for barcelona: booth layout, attendee gifts; announce schedule 15:00:37 <dneary> mburns, The risk is that people do nothing and don't show for day 2, of course 15:00:57 <mburns> dneary: right, but it puts the burden on us 15:01:35 <mburns> i'd explain that we'd like to reopen registration for day 2 and wanted to confirm whether they'll be in attendance for day 2 15:01:48 <mburns> and if not, can we open their seat for registration 15:01:59 <mburns> obviously with better and nicer language... 15:02:59 <dneary> mburns, Yeah 15:03:00 <lh> mburns, dneary "We've added a second day to highlight information for developers. If you'd benefit from these talks, please sign up for Day 2." 15:03:15 * dneary is leaning towards lh now 15:03:28 <mburns> lh: should have some sort of answer by EOW 15:03:39 <mburns> (on hardware 15:03:39 <lh> s/please sign up for Day 2"/please let us know and we'll sign you up for Day 2. 15:03:40 <mburns> ) 15:03:51 <lh> mburns, excellent. 15:03:53 <mburns> need a deadline... 15:03:59 <dneary> mburns, On 3.2 release plans: has improving the upgrade path made it onto the project plans? 15:04:02 <mburns> if you're going to re-open... 15:04:12 <dneary> Sorry to switch topics, but I see the time rolling down 15:04:12 <mburns> dneary: not explicitly, i don't think 15:04:23 <dneary> OK. Maybe it should? 15:04:35 <mburns> dneary: probably 15:05:02 <mburns> dneary: though might not be possible in 3.2 given short time frame 15:05:14 <mburns> i'll talk to the maintainers and see if we can map something out 15:05:32 <lh> mburns, end of this week for demo equipment go or no go, plus specs required by close of business this friday 15:05:53 <mburns> lh: yes, should be doable 15:06:04 <oschreib> dneary: depends on the target OS, I guess the upgrade will be a bit easier 15:06:20 <lh> mburns, excellent 15:06:23 <lh> mburns, thank you 15:06:28 <mburns> oschreib: basically, we need to be more flexible with upgrade 15:06:38 <mburns> and not tie ourselves to a specific version 15:06:46 <mburns> i.e. 3.2 needs to run on what 3.1 runs on 15:06:52 <mburns> as well as new versions 15:07:08 <mburns> and hopefully 3.1 runs on F18 as well... 15:07:35 <mburns> #action mburns to look into upgrade flow 15:07:54 <mburns> ok, anything else for today? 15:08:00 <RobertM> I think what mburns is saying is that all supported versions of Fedora should be supported. 15:08:29 <mburns> RobertM: it goes beyond that though 15:08:44 <mburns> when coding to new features in other packages, make sure there are fallbacks 15:08:56 <mburns> or some sort of capabilities negotiation 15:09:18 <mburns> in 3.1, we needed a f17 libvirt feature and had no fallback if it wasn't there 15:09:25 <mburns> that forced a move to F17 15:09:42 <RobertM> ok I follow 15:10:11 <dneary> Upgrading the engine, and using 3.1 Node with 3.2 engine would be sufficient, I think 15:10:39 <mburns> you can boil it down to "all supported versions" as long as it's understood that new features need to be disabled if they're not available 15:10:45 <mburns> dneary: yes, that's cluster version 15:11:11 <mburns> set cluster version = 3.1 on 3.2 and it should work 15:11:24 <mburns> but the upgrade of engine from 3.1 to 3.2 should not require a fedora upgrade 15:11:44 <mburns> and a fedora upgrade of a 3.1 engine host shouldn't break engine 15:11:45 <RobertM> dneary, Depends. Right now in theory you can run a 3.0 node from 3.1 but you have to have the 3.0 and 3.1 nodes in diff cluster. There needs to be a way upgrade a node without having to remove it from a cluster 15:12:30 <dneary> mburns, Yes, all agreed 15:12:44 <jbrooks> dneary, 11 people responded to say they want to attend the second day. 15:12:57 <mburns> RobertM: you should be able to run a 3.1 host in a 3.0 cluster 15:12:57 <dneary> jbrooks, 11 of 16 respondents? 15:13:08 <jbrooks> dneary, 11 of 52 15:13:08 <dneary> jbrooks, That's pretty high 15:13:17 <dneary> Did we get 52 respondent? 15:13:26 <dneary> s 15:13:27 <mburns> and once all hosts are 3.1 capable, move the cluster to 3.1 15:13:39 <jbrooks> This wasn't a poll question -- the message said, respond to this message if you want to attend day two 15:13:43 <RobertM> mburns, good to know 15:14:31 <jbrooks> We mailed 52 people the poll, and that message asked about the 2nd day 15:14:52 <mburns> jbrooks: dneary: this can probably be taken off the meeting for discussion 15:14:53 <lh> jbrooks, that's a good data point. perhaps our message to those 11 should be "congrats, you're registered" and to other attendees "we still have 35+ spaces left for day 2" 15:14:57 <lh> dneary, ^^ ? 15:15:09 <mburns> but i like that idea... 15:15:19 <dneary> jbrooks, I read something different into that 15:15:32 <dneary> Email 52 people, 16 reply, 11 of the 16 say they're interested in day 2 15:16:05 <jbrooks> dneary, yes, of those who acted on the msg, 11 said yes to 2nd day 15:16:13 <dneary> lh: Yes, we shouldn't re-register people who have already said they're in for day 2 15:18:06 <ovirtbot> 14[[07Troubleshooting14]]4 !10 02http://wiki.ovirt.org/w/index.php?diff=4622&oldid=4621&rcid=4738 5* 03Mburns 5* (-41) 10/* Installation */ change references to Node. We have a separate component called ovirt-node which could lead to confusion with your explanation. 15:18:21 <mburns> ok, anything else to cover? 15:19:16 * mburns closing in 30 sec 15:19:22 <dneary> Thanks mburns 15:20:22 <mburns> thanks all! 15:20:24 <mburns> #endmeeting